Well, this is a discussion the entire nation needs to have, but, certainly, the Republican party needs to have, sooner better than later. Sadly, the tone and the temperament of the discussion is set, and it ain’t pretty!
So, Rand Paul has made some news, recently. And, he’s right, partly right, and wrong. Other Repub presidential hopefuls have opined on Paul’s stances, most notable, Chris Christie and Bobby Jindal. However, the issues Christie and Jindal chimed in on are separate, but, somewhat related issues.
To catch the readers up, Paul has been open about his disdain for the Patriot Act. Thus, this article from Fox ….. be sure to read the emboldened quotes ……
Christie accuses Paul, Lee of siding with ‘criminal’ Snowden on NSA
New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie lashed out at Sens. Mike Lee, R-Utah, and Rand Paul, R-Ky., on “Fox and Friends” Wednesday, over their efforts to block the renewal of the Patriot Act.
Christie, a fellow Republican and likely presidential candidate who backs the Patriot Act, accused Lee and Paul of “siding with” NSA leaker Edward Snowden.
“He’s a criminal, he’s a criminal and he’s hiding in Russia, and he’s lecturing to us about the evils of authoritarian government, while he lives under the protective umbrella of Vladimir Putin,” Christie said. “That’s who Mike Lee and Rand Paul are siding with – with Edward Snowden? Come on.”
The beef between the senators and Christie has been growing for some time. Christie had told supporters in New Hampshire that “you can’t enjoy our civil liberties if you’re in a coffin.”
Lee later told CNN he found the remark “really disappointing” and it reflected “governing by fear and governing by false choice.” He also said Christie should be ashamed of himself.
The feud with Lee and Paul, a declared presidential candidate, comes as Congress is stuck on what to do about expiring NSA surveillance programs.
Lee backs an alternative to the Patriot Act called the USA Freedom Act. The House-passed bill aims to limit bulk collection of metadata on American citizens. But neither that, nor a straight, short-term extension of the Patriot Act, was able to advance in the Senate before lawmakers left on the holiday break. The data collection program is set to expire at the end of the month.
During his interview on Fox News, Christie also blasted President Obama’s strategy in the Middle East – citing the Islamic State’s growing influence, as well as Syrian President Bashar Assad’s.
“If a President Christie had drawn a red line in Syria,” the United Sates would have gone after Assad as promised, he said.
Christie also criticized Obama for not being aggressive enough bringing together allies in the Middle East.
“They need American support and American leadership and American strategic vision, this president hasn’t put it out there, this is the guy who called them the JV,” Christie said. “Now, all of a sudden. He’s got a strategy that’s successful? It’s been disappointing to watch it.”
Well, from that, I know all I need to know about Christie and how he would conduct his foreign policy ….. with little thought. I would also note that he’s unfamiliar with Franklin’s thoughts about people who would give up liberties for some security.
I could be that Christie is simply an unimaginative clod who can’t think of a better way to keep Americans safe than spying on them 24/7. Senator Lee (one of my favorites) was entirely correct, it’s a false choice. I would suggest that our government can keep the American citizenry safe without spying on us 24/7. I would also suggest that part of our government’s job, along with keeping the citizenry safe, is to ensure our liberties are safeguarded. That’s the job, those two tasks are the only jobs of the US government, at its base. (The commerce clause is part of our liberties.) So, if you can’t ensure our liberties while keeping us safe, then you are uniquely unqualified for the job of heading our government.
The last quote of Christie takes us to the next part of this post ….
“If a President Christie had drawn a red line in Syria,” the United Sates would have gone after Assad as promised, he said.
You see, Paul gave an interview on such things …..
Responding to the oft-repeated charge that non-interventionist libertarians are somehow responsible for the rise of ISIS, the Kentucky senator flipped that accusation on its head Wednesday morning, laying the blame squarely instead on the shoulders of his accusers (via TWS):
“ISIS exists and grew stronger because of the hawks in our party who gave arms indiscriminately, and most of those arms were snatched up by ISIS. These hawks also wanted to bomb Assad, which would have made ISIS’s job even easier. They created these people.”
Well, no. Yes, but, no. The lunatics (Obama, McCain, Graham …. ) did indeed indiscriminately hand out arms. They’re morons. Who does that in the Mid East? …. I mean, who does that without knowing, absolutely knowing, that the arms will come into hands of people who hate the US?
Yes, this did strengthen ISIS. But, it did not create those lunatics. But, then, I’ll let Jindal have a say on this matter ….
Jindal, who is almost certainly running for president in 2016, blasted the Kentucky senator in a statement for adopting what he uncharitably described as both “illogical” and “liberal” arguments.
“This is a perfect example of why Senator Paul is unsuited to be Commander-in-Chief,” he declared. “We have men and women in the military who are in the field trying to fight ISIS right now, and Senator Paul is taking the weakest, most liberal Democrat position.”
“We should all be clear that evil and Radical Islam are at fault for the rise of ISIS, and people like President Obama and Hillary Clinton exacerbate it,” he added. “American weakness, not American strength, emboldens our enemies. Senator Paul’s illogical argument clouds a situation that should provide pure moral clarity. Islam has a problem. ISIS is its current manifestation. And the next President’s job is to have the discipline and strength to wipe ISIS off the face of the earth. It has become impossible to imagine a President Paul defeating radical Islam and it’s time for the rest of us to say it.”
Ouch!!!!
But, then, Jindal is correct. I wished Jindal would have been more charitable to Paul, but, Jindal is probably going to run, as well, so he’s not going to hold back against a guy who will compete with him for the base.
Don’t get me wrong, I like Rand Paul. And, I’ll certainly vote for him before I will Christie. And, I like Jindal. To be honest, I like Paul’s non-interventionism. But, he made a very poor choice of words when he tried to defend his non-intervention stances, and through innuendo, he also made a false choice. But, it goes beyond that. Non-intervention is fantastic for future events. But, the statements Paul made doesn’t deal with the ‘here and now’. ISIS is a problem. It needs destroyed …. now. If it isn’t wholly and utterly destroyed, it will only grow stronger, and the threat will be a problem for the entire world, not just the Mid-East.
Jindal is also correct, this is an Islam problem. I think any rational person can see this isn’t just a problem of a select few crazies, religious nuts, perpetrating all of these problems. Islam …. take your pick of what flavor, has constantly, continually, generated some inhuman, degenerate, SOBs; each iteration more degenerate than the last. And, it’s well past time for the rest of us to say it.
Those are my takes on these rigmaroles. What say you?
suyts space 
just putting this here for later…..BB in a min….dinner time!
Excellent!
That ended up being dinner..a phone call…and company for a little while!
Yep. Islam has had its ISIS, in some form, centuries before there were hawks in a GOP. Created them? No. Emboldened them thru US weaponry? Sure.
We didn’t spill the grease. But we stepped in it and walked around the kitchen. Troublesome to clean, but necessary.
well exactly….religion of peace my rear
I welcome radical Islam, because it is fundamental Islam that is the problem.
good point!
leftinflagstaff says:
May 27, 2015 at 6:03 pm
“Yep. Islam has had its ISIS, in some form, centuries before there were hawks in a GOP. Created them? No. Emboldened them thru US weaponry? Sure.”
Well, WHENEVER you need a proxy you gotta find groups that are savage enough for that role. Might be commies, might be Nazis, as in Ukraine, might be Muslims.
>>
The commerce clause is part of our liberties.
<<
Really? Do you mean the statement in Article I, Section 8 that reads: “To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes?” I think that clause is a major failing of the Constitution by letting Congress regulate (and now tax) all businesses.
Jim
Excellent point, Jim, but, I was writing to the intent, rather than our government’s execution of the Constitution. Indeed, it’s become quite the opposite of the intent.
Reblogged this on Climate Ponderings.
What say you?…
We’re Americans, living in the United States….thank God my wife drives a Volvo..and what time does Oprah and The Five come on?
We have a hard time imagining people are actually having sex with goats, and condoning it. Mutilating women and treating them like goats.
We need to grow up and realize there are entire countries, entire civilizations….that are not civilized.
There’s a reason the only time those people were silent was when they had a hard core dictator, mullah, witch doctor running the show. And that same reason is why we have to deal with things like Al Qaeda, ISIS, Al-Islah, you name it….they only understand who’s got the biggest sword
….we are starting to have the exact same problems in this country. Entire inner city slums, government subsidized….that have their own language, own culture, own rules, own laws…
Son, it’s time for you to grow up, get a job, and carry on the family tradition….just like your mother, your father, grand mother, and grand father…. aunts and uncles
…now here’s a bag of heroin, go out and get to work
Hard to disagree. In fact, I can’t.
you know…we really need to grow up and realize they don’t want to be like us
I watched Mr. Christie’s Fox interview.
It was disgusting… filled with half-truths and false innuendos.
He tried to associate Mr Lee and others to being in league with MR. Snowden… whom he painted as a “criminal”.
So as a Attorney General… granting a “plea deal” to a “C. I.”…. are you in league with those criminals?
So you use a criminal to catch a criminal.
Tell me the difference?
NAS isn’t criminal, you say – Well, the Circuit Court and FBI Reports state it was illegal. AND IT WAS DONE IN SECRET!.
Oh, it only works when you do it???
HE stated he used the Patriot Act to convict terrorists….
OUESTION:
Did you use the phone metadata?
Could you have achieved the same results with a warrant? [ I think I’d be looking at cause to appeal ].
+100
Thank you.
In oversight reports issued since at least 2003, the Justice Department inspector general has identified dozens of incidents it blamed on the FBI in which demands issued under a separate section of the Patriot Act were unauthorized or improper involving the collection of telephone logs, email records or credit reports.
In some cases, the FBI obtained records for phone numbers no longer used by targets of its investigations or permission to conduct the investigations had already lapsed. Some of the FBI violations were deemed “willful and intentional,” according to internal FBI records.
An analysis issued Friday by the Justice Department’s inspector general found that FBI agents testified that the law contains valuable investigative tools, but noted agents “did not identify any major case developments” that came from using Section 215.
The Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board, an independent bipartisan agency, declared NSA’s phone records collections program illegal in 2014, and a federal court of appeals reached the same conclusion earlier this month.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/bush-christie-rise-defense-patriot-act/
Mr Christie also tried to make it sound like he used the Patriot Act to CATCH terrorists.
Another half-truth… He used it to Prosecute……….
Prosecution took longer than 6 months? 1 year? ………. No time for warrant???
BS!!!!!!!!!
There is the argument:
That you can not expect privacy:
Former NSA Director Michael Hayden says that collecting billions of phone records in no way violates the Fourth Amendment and that Americans should have no reasonable expectation of privacy. As the phone company has done this.
”
WRONG:
I’m in a “contractual agreement” with the PHONE company… it is voluntary.
I CAN NOT be in a consensual contract with a “Third Party” [ NSA ]…especially if NSA actions are kept secret.
MY REASONABLE EXPECTATION OF PRIVACY … IS THE 4th AMMENDMENT.
““If a President Christie had drawn a red line in Syria,” the United Sates would have gone after Assad as promised, he said. ”
Well, he would have lost the carrier George Bush to a Shkval torpedo fired from that approaching Russian destroyer in that case. Vacuous loudmouth. (Obama admin sent the carrier through the Suez canal to safety and abandoned attack on Syria.)