@markknoller Apparently, killing someone is more humane than running some water on their face. #WHlogic
— Rschrim (@Rschrim) February 5, 2013
@markknoller Apparently, killing someone is more humane than running some water on their face. #WHlogic
— Rschrim (@Rschrim) February 5, 2013
One of my favorite T’s…
You get the BEST looks!
LOL!!! Zero’s says he’d rather be drone bombing!
Reblogged this on Climate Ponderings.
Guess what they do to SERE school students? I can neither confirm nor deny that.
Both are horrific things. I do understand the concept of war, and that there are americans who are engaged in destructive acts against the country. In war situations I can understand absolutely killing someone who is trying to harm you.
Waterboarding and any kind of torture are counterproductive in the long run, though they may occasionally give valuable information. EVERY state feels it is justified in actions and the ends just ifies the means is always an excuse. that is why we have laws and why international law was created. Americna exceptionalism is used to justify the idea that WE are the good guys, so therefore inhumae treatment is a necesary evil. And that is exactly what the soviets Germans thought , and what ALL the tyrannical governments think.
Should not have to mention to you that I don’t think Jesus would be terribly supportive of either practice.
Tony, this wasn’t necessarily an endorsement of water-boarding. The point was the upsidedown values of this administration. Regardless of how horrific one considers water-boarding, they can’t possibly think it’s worse than killing our own citizens without due process.
They certainly can think it worse.
Their justification is that this is a war, and it is assymetrical warfare, not people in uniforms fighting each other on the field of Battle. that makes drone strikes part fo the new rules of war, and therefore acceptable. he same with extra judicial killings as have been practiced for years by Israel against palestinian military targets.
I disagree with this view rather vehemently, but it is a defendable position.
I understand the justification of the drone attacks. And I understand people’s opposition to “enhanced interrogation techniques”. And no, no one can say waterboarding is worse than killing.
Torture of a prisoner is worse than killing on a battlefield.
If you are Klingon.
Agreed, but, then, that’s not what we’re referring to, here.
The wussification of men has caused us to call what amounts to a frat hazing technique, torture. Maybe Kelly would rather be dead, but I would rather be waterboarded, and then leave the interrogation chamber intact.
I agree with you but that is the contention. BOTH are abhorent, but there can be no justification for torture, when someone has been apprehended and is in custody. Torturing rewuires that the agency doing the torturing has a moral stand that is above reproach, and the person being tortured MUST be guilty. Clearly the US government, neither Bush, nor Obama is not privy to God’s judgement, and toprture puts us on par with every other regime that justified it for the greater good. Dorne atttacks on Americans can be justified as part of warfare. It is in my view just as horrendous because of the lack of mediation by any outside force, adn the ease with which it is possible to rationalize “bending rules” becuase it is easier to do so.
I have never understood the arguments agaisnt the military as stated in the Uniform code of Military justice. How conservatives were able to condone Bush’s actions set a precedent that has allowed the current administration to abuse it’s power as well This was my argument with conservatives about Bush. Do you WANT a democratic to have this power? always there was silence. Now at lest some progressives are being more forceful in attacking Obama. Jon Steward just skewered Obama tonight, and the admin has agreed to give congressional committies confidential papsers regarding this.
” and the person being tortured MUST be guilty.”
War is not a courtroom full of lawyers. Like it or not, war is the destruction and decimation of your enemy. To play war is to lose war. To pretend it is some civil endeavor is to lose war. Your statement demonstrates a total ignorance of what war is.
See response below……
Soviets Germans? Did I miss that regime?
He’s just free stylin’! Riffing. ;)
Phil actual;ly the soviet Germans were quite popular after World War One. you should read a bit of history. (OK, who wants to bet where Phil goes with THIS one?)
Same place anyone would go – what country did they rule? I am eagerly awaiting the answer to that one.
It seems I missed the 2 1/2 Reich created by Marx and Engels. But then perhaps my history is not as complete as the masters.
“Tony, this wasn’t necessarily an endorsement of water-boarding.”
No, but this was!
Bring me the terrorist, a bucket, a board and a towel.
So you have no problem torturing ANYONE that you are told is a terrorist? What if Obama tells you Glenn Beck is a terrorist, will you waterboard him? As enetertaining as that though is I can see you being hauled up for insubordination at your refusal.
Gator does not play the toady to Obama. However, if you are talking about Obama declaring terrorists, he already has declared Beck to be one.
You need to keep up with the news.
The moment I first read about waterboarding I literally thanked God. I would waterboard my own family to save an innocent life.
Tony, you are absolutely clueless about war and ‘torture’. My father had friends who were actually tortured in Vietnam. Horrendous things were done to those men, things from which they never fully recovered. And it was done not to save innocent life, but to spread communism.
PS – Thanks for the Glenn Beck strawman. Missed again. ;)
Tony, the thing about waterboarding is the question as to whether or not it rises to the level of torture. Prior to the term “waterboarding”, most people understood torture to mean something like bamboo shoots under the fingernails, or putting cigarettes out on a person’s skin, lashing a person with a whip, and things of that nature. Waterboarding is something which won’t maim or cripple or mar anyone, and while the subject may not know this, their life isn’t in danger. So, it’s difficult for me to equate “waterboarding” with what people traditionally think of as torture. But, on the general subject of torture, I agree. The US should never engage in such.
As to drone attacks, I’ve no problem with their use at all…… except, not on US citizens. At time of war, enemy combatants against the US can have no expectation other than swift and just response. And, if a US citizen is engaged in attacks or if an attack is eminent from a US citizen, then…. well that’s what happened. But, if there is no evidence of an attack or eminence of one and the citizen is killed, then that’s murder. Plain and simple. Our government can’t do it in this case for the same reason we don’t let our government drag out bad guys and just kill them. (Well, we’re not suppose to allow it.)
There is an easy solution to this. If we’ve identified a citizen as an enemy, but an attack isn’t eminent, then charge him/her with treason and strip them of citizenship.
As to the Repubs and Bush…… I shouldn’t have to remind you there were equal numbers of Dems in support of this crap. I’ll tell you like I told Ed. Bush got a few mulligans because of 9/11 that he wouldn’t have otherwise got. I was opposed to the Pat. act, but muted in my response. We have to recall there weren’t blogs like this on every corner back then. And, like I told Ed, I don’t expect you to be able to distinguish, yet. But, there’s a fine distinction to be made when using the term “conservative”. I’m a conservative. I am not Carl Rove.
Were that places like this existed back then, we’d have a different today. But, we didn’t and we don’t. Tony, I’m afraid for my country. This is why I’m here.
“Tony, the thing about waterboarding is the question as to whether or not it rises to the level of torture.”
In congunction with other methods that leave no marks there is not much doubt is there. So keeping someone in a cage with lights on and music blarring 24/7 possibly naked, with regular wake ups if you do manage to sleep and food deprived and then making them think they will die is not torture? What would your definition be?
Just curious – do you spell “conjunction” with a g?
But to throw some gas on to this fire: Keeping someone in a cage or depriving them of sleep does leave physical marks (playing loud music may not). Depriving them of food does as well. And all are also potentially fatal if carried on too long.
I believe Suyts point was that torture “leaves marks” AND can be fatal. None of your alternative methods fit Suyts definition.
And just so you know, I am not agreeing or disagreeing with either of you. As I indicated at first, I am just a sh-t stirrer.
Looks like I am a bad speller.
“With Mr. Latif’s death, there are now 56 Yemenis who have been cleared for release by the Guantánamo Review Task Force since 2009 but who remain in prison. President Obama, citing general security concerns, has imposed a moratorium on any and all transfers to Yemen, regardless of age, innocence or infirmity. ” http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/14/opinion/life-and-death-at-guantanamo-bay.html?_r=0
Isn’t imprisoning a person potentially for there natural life even after they have been found to be no threat and have not done anything wrong torture? I would consider it as such and when talking about should only afford US citizens rights, remember you are threatening me with the same. Although I think it is worse than that and the US is capable to it to your own. I would not wish such treatment on my enemy.
Re: Spelling – no, I am just ignorant of the many variations of English Spelling the world over. I thought it might be a different way, and wanted to make sure I knew before my trip to Oz. ;-)
As for the example, you do bring up a good conundrum. Is torture worse than death? Now, I am not supporting either view at this time, nor am I agreeing with Obama on the status of Yemen, but at least what I think his justification is – if he releases them, they will die. So the regimes argument is – is death worse than torture. Here he is apparently saying no. His drones are apparently saying yes. But then that is Obama for you – never a straight answer.
Kelly, clearly, if someone is found to not have done anything wrong, we need to find a better solution than life imprisonment. And, yes, I would consider that torture. Recall, I was specifically referring to water-boarding, with the presumption that the person satisfied conditions of being called an enemy.
Please find me an “innocent” inmate at Gitmo. I’m dying to meet him.
You would be “dying” after you met him.
Suyts if you and Phil waterboarded me I would not consider it torture because I wouldn’t believe you would kill me. In the context of how it is done from my imagination I would call it torture.
Head restrained towel put over head and hose put on where your mouth is they keep the water running until you breathe some in coughing profusely. Then they ask question threaten that if you don’t answer this is your last breath then put the towel back on and proceed, this would continue all the time you are thinking you will die. If you throw up then it might stop because they actually don’t want to kill you. A controlled method of holding a persons head under water with lower risk of killing them.
Gee! I am grouped with Suyts! I am honored.
Obviously, Kelly, my examples weren’t meant to be all inclusive. In a cage? Depends on the size. We keep people in cages all the time, we call them jails. Food and sleep deprivation may both be fatal. Naked? I’d have to get back to you on that. It’s too conditional.
Loud music? Well if it’s rap or Justin Beiber, then, yes, and prolly the Jonas bros, as well. Improvisational Jazz is probably there, too.
“We keep people in cages all the time, we call them jails.”
Some Chinese pay rent for cages, and call them “home”…
“KONG (AP) — For many of the richest people in Hong Kong, one of Asia’s wealthiest cities, home is a mansion with an expansive view from the heights of Victoria Peak. For some of the poorest, like Leung Cho-yin, home is a metal cage.
The 67-year-old former butcher pays 1,300 Hong Kong dollars ($167) a month for one of about a dozen wire mesh cages resembling rabbit hutches crammed into a dilapidated apartment in a gritty, working-class West Kowloon neighborhood.”
Read more: http://www.myfoxny.com/story/21021301/hong-kong-poor-in-cages-shows-dark-side-of-property-boom#ixzz2KEYV97cQ
“There always has been a distinction between citizens, and non-citizens,” “It means something to be a citizen. And that’s important.”… -Obama 2002
“Because what we’re doing here today, a debate over the fundamental human rights of the accused, should be bigger than politics. This is serious.”… -Obama 2006
“In the future, people like this may never have a chance to prove their innocence,” -Senator Obama
I agree with most everything you wrote in your comment to me, and I don’t consider you a neo con, though I probably would not consider you a conservative, in the way that you say you are :-)
I think, you’ve missed the point of this post.
Reposting the “title”
“Killing American Citizens “legal, ethical and wise” ….. Waterboarding…. not so much.
It is not about things covered by the Geneva Convention.
It is not about Constitutional Rights granted citizens.
It is about the hypocrisy of this administration.
AND I see no way, for you, to defend this administrations hypocrisy -
HERE’S THE HYPOCRISY:
At a news conference Tuesday, White House press secretary Jay Carney said the administration ordered drone strikes “because they are necessary to mitigate ongoing actual threats, to stop plots, prevent future attacks and, again, save American lives.”
It’s too bad Carney failed to recognize that those are the very reasons desperate intelligence officials turned to unusual interrogation methods, authorized by Bush lawyers, to prevent the next al-Qaida attack.
And for those milder measures, Holder used the raw power of the federal investigation to punish intelligence officials and Bush lawyers. Because he was one of the good guys.
Excellent post Kim! This is just one more solid reason why I despise leftists. Zero principles.
Exactly! I should have used that. Thanks!
Thank You! :)
I would have added “rationally or logically” to your last statement. It is clear from the truthers that they are defending it – but then they are not being very rational or logical about it.
Tony, yeh, well what’s in a label? It’s getting to the point where I feel obliged to distinguish my thoughts and advocacy from other people who are labeled as “conservative” but, offer very little in truly conservative ideas. Thanks for understanding there’s a difference! :)
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